tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27662400.post4516634001922870272..comments2024-03-17T02:20:03.772-05:00Comments on Riding With The Top Down: So Kathleen's like, "That's apostrophe abuse!"Kathleen Eaglehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13561028604927993773noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27662400.post-37071850308110323552009-10-10T15:02:52.896-05:002009-10-10T15:02:52.896-05:00Speaking of between, I cringe when I hear it used ...Speaking of between, I cringe when I hear it used when among is the correct choice. <br /><br />Absolutely on the dialogue, Betina. I'm working with an editor--a real sweetie--who puts "colloquial, right? just checking" in the margin. I appreciate the checking. I also appreciate letting the character have his voice.Kathleen Eaglehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13561028604927993773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27662400.post-33716710674497746262009-10-10T12:02:50.832-05:002009-10-10T12:02:50.832-05:00If the English language made any sense, a catastro...If the English language made any sense, a catastrophe would be an apostrophe with fur. - Doug LarsonMinnahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04150644876765079753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27662400.post-43174506020078593202009-10-10T09:08:50.575-05:002009-10-10T09:08:50.575-05:00I've had the occasional copy editor change &qu...I've had the occasional copy editor change "It's me" (written as dialogue) to "It's I" and I nearly had a stroke. Who talks that way? And it's DIALOGUE. You can write it the way people often speak it in dialogue. Hmmmm. Which may be the reason I love writing dialogue.<br /><br />Also "It was him" to "It was he." Some things that are techincally correct sound harsh and unnatural to the ear and must give place in the name of writerly voice and readerly sensibilityBetina Krahnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11379124690406269848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27662400.post-33394880691139366192009-10-10T01:36:48.337-05:002009-10-10T01:36:48.337-05:00Ok, here it is. It turned out to be an explanation...Ok, here it is. It turned out to be an explanation why people say "Between you and I" from the BBC radio series English Now in 1986: <br />I shouln't be used in between you and I. The pronoun should be me after a preposition, as in Give it to me.<br /><br />This is true; but many people are unconsciously aware of the way grammars have criticized me in other in constructions, recommending it is I or He's bigger than I as the correct form. They feel that I is somehow more polite, and as a result they begin to use it in places where it wouldn't normally go. <br /><br />I guess this is one of those battles grammars will lose. Sooner or later.Minnahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04150644876765079753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27662400.post-18669737442796191012009-10-09T22:59:31.728-05:002009-10-09T22:59:31.728-05:00Wow. Great discussion. I got bogged down in a da...Wow. Great discussion. I got bogged down in a dang deadline and didn't participate the way I wanted to. I'll check back over the weekend, though. <br /><br />Oh, how about alot and alright? Editors seem to be letting those two slide. I see them in print a lot lately, but neither is all right in my book.Kathleen Eaglehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13561028604927993773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27662400.post-83752000846689365622009-10-09T22:51:15.776-05:002009-10-09T22:51:15.776-05:00Deb, I'm using fragments in my fiction and &qu...Deb, I'm using fragments in my fiction and "friendly" writing much more than I used to.<br /><br />As for spelling, does anyone remember the ITA movement? The Initial Teaching Alphabet was popular in elementary education in the 60's, and it involved teaching reading using an alphabet that was supposedly phonetic. Some kids made the transition to standard spelling without too much trouble, but many did not. Spelling is a real challenge in English. I'm not the greatest speler. But, well...it is what it is.Kathleen Eaglehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13561028604927993773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27662400.post-85944842831027646942009-10-09T22:41:42.865-05:002009-10-09T22:41:42.865-05:00Anon, I was going for a self-deprecating tone in t...Anon, I was going for a self-deprecating tone in the anecdote about the waitress. Guess I missed the mark. Believe me, I've been corrected in front of witnesses more than once. Saints might be born humble, but I suspect most of us learn humility the hard way.<br /><br />By the way, as a teacher, I used the red pen sparingly. I wanted students to express themselves. People learn to speak, read and write by speaking, reading and writing. Adults model for kids.Kathleen Eaglehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13561028604927993773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27662400.post-86594564665406088422009-10-09T22:08:27.074-05:002009-10-09T22:08:27.074-05:00Christy, I'm in favor of shooting the ize out....Christy, I'm in favor of shooting the ize out. Where is it written that we can just make verbs out of everything with our ize? Prioritize, anyone?Kathleen Eaglehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13561028604927993773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27662400.post-26827068279240194762009-10-09T20:56:58.113-05:002009-10-09T20:56:58.113-05:00Oh, but there are so many.
I'm not allowed to...Oh, but there are so many.<br /><br />I'm not allowed to use the word "just." It's my favorite word apparently. So, I have to take it out.<br /><br />And then I take out the word "so."<br /><br />One thing I do like though and continue to use is the sentence fragment.<br /><br />I also like the odd conjunction opening a sentence now and then. (see above)Debra Dixonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03992776098849029414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27662400.post-91006900513150452342009-10-09T16:48:04.336-05:002009-10-09T16:48:04.336-05:00Janga, I have to check tomorrow what it said in th...Janga, I have to check tomorrow what it said in the Crystal's book about "Between you and I". But I do remember that whatever it was, it wasn't Crystal's idea. The example was from some BBC radio series about language.Minnahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04150644876765079753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27662400.post-32020915275352960322009-10-09T16:16:27.686-05:002009-10-09T16:16:27.686-05:00You named two of my favorites - whatever and you k...You named two of my favorites - whatever and you knowcatsladyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06375770995988927860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27662400.post-45556939255624319202009-10-09T16:16:14.315-05:002009-10-09T16:16:14.315-05:00According to standard English, "between"...According to standard English, "between" is a preposition. Pronouns functioning as the object of "between" should be in objective case. Therefore, "between you and me" is correct standard usage.<br /><br />Perhaps one day Crystal and other proponents of non-standard usage will win the battle, but I don't believe they can claim victory yet.Jangahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15128188159653860806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27662400.post-84901694461212619142009-10-09T15:44:26.272-05:002009-10-09T15:44:26.272-05:00Oh, and in the book I mentioned there was also som...Oh, and in the book I mentioned there was also something about "Between you and I". It might not be quite as wrong as you think.Minnahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04150644876765079753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27662400.post-65905939815521873702009-10-09T15:41:49.105-05:002009-10-09T15:41:49.105-05:00I recomend The English Language by David Crystal! ...I recomend The English Language by David Crystal! It was fun to read.<br />My pet peeves have a bit more to do with Finnish language, as it's my mother tongue, but...<br />There is this direct loan from the English phrase, "in the long run" and more and more you get to hear the direct, Finnish translation of that one, instead of the Finnish phrase that goes something like "during a long period of time". And then there's my nephew, who says "iska" instead of "iskä" (dad). But languages, pronunciation, meaning of words etc. change all the time. What some think as mistake now, won't be considered as one some time later.Minnahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04150644876765079753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27662400.post-55459789462071650362009-10-09T15:04:08.231-05:002009-10-09T15:04:08.231-05:00Anon - that's a good point. But, on the other...Anon - that's a good point. But, on the other hand, if we hadn't worried so much about hurting other people's feelings maybe they would have learned proper grammar and punctuation. I think we've gone way too far to avoid hurting feelings. I'm by no means advocating getting rid of manners, in fact, I appreciate manners, but we've become awfully coddled as a society. But that's a whole other rant...GunDivahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02965363044411500380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27662400.post-42456627906650576062009-10-09T12:08:31.031-05:002009-10-09T12:08:31.031-05:00When I read this type of post and the responding c...When I read this type of post and the responding comments, I often wonder--which is more important, good grammar or good manners? How embarrassing was it for that waitress when you did a grammar check on the menu and proceeded with your critique while she had a number of tables to wait on? <br />And how about the people whose signs were corrected with a red marker? <br />Everyone (even a waitress) has strengths and weaknesses. Your strength is grammar. <br />Hers must have been long suffering.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27662400.post-34130218964351786482009-10-09T11:59:56.570-05:002009-10-09T11:59:56.570-05:00Whoops.. don't get me started. My real pet pea...Whoops.. don't get me started. My real pet peave is when someone pronounces wash, as arsh.. 'I am going to warsh the car'. Why did someone not tell me there was an 'r' in this word. This drives me nuts. Of course in our family of Irish and Scotish some words oare atrocious. I hate when people anilate the english language, be it American or the Queens english pronouciation. I used to correct my grandmother all the time with words or phrases and she used to get so mad at me..Kathleen Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10750925187927330976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27662400.post-34727431034919406112009-10-09T11:01:52.686-05:002009-10-09T11:01:52.686-05:00Cate - I SO hear you (is that another pet peeve ph...Cate - I SO hear you (is that another pet peeve phrase?) on that "the dishes need washed" construction. My son-in-law, who has a PhD in nuclear physics uses it all the time. He's from Iowa. I think it's a midwest thing. I once did a temp job transcribing reports and I automatically fixed it, while grinding my teeth, of course.Terry Odellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11610682530545306687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27662400.post-78724523162978585062009-10-09T10:57:19.460-05:002009-10-09T10:57:19.460-05:00There is one phrase that almost made me put down a...There is one phrase that almost made me put down a book because it was used excessively..."she said with feeling" or "he said with feeling." This is overused by a NYT Best Selling Author and when I see it, I just want to scream. I've vowed to NEVER use either phrase. EVER. So far, it's been a pretty easy vow to keep.GunDivahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02965363044411500380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27662400.post-56903069706715283462009-10-09T10:48:50.203-05:002009-10-09T10:48:50.203-05:00Loved this! As a Catholic school survivor (for eig...Loved this! As a Catholic school survivor (for eight long years), I'm a stickler for proper English. I'm so proud that my daughter is too - even when texting, she uses correct punctuation and spells everything out. Texting in all its varations frightens me, never more than when I read about a college course in translating Shakespeare into texting. Wha?<br />But I digress. My main peeve unfortunately relates to the area we moved to about twenty years ago. Apparently no one here knows about the phrase "to be" (no, not another attack on Shakespeare) - everything "needs done" rather than needs to be done. My teeth have shortened a bit with all the grinding.Cate Mastershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01371792447604980848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27662400.post-18866740383011482542009-10-09T10:22:31.159-05:002009-10-09T10:22:31.159-05:00I loved this post! Funny, we were just having a gr...I loved this post! Funny, we were just having a grammar and punctuation rant at work yesterday. My favorite punctuation book of all time is "Eats, Shoots and Leaves". <br /><br />One of my biggest pet peeves is when people can't pronounce things properly. My children, from the time they began talking (and they talk incessantly) were expected to pronounce their words properly. They heard, almost on a daily basis, "there is no X in <i>especially</i>." That came back to bit me in the you-know-what when my daughter got to junior high and had a teacher who kept saying <i>ex</i>specially. My daughter almost failed the class because all she could hear was "there's no X in especially!".<br /><br />My thought is that if a person can't pronounce something properly, there's no way they'll ever be able to spell properly.GunDivahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02965363044411500380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27662400.post-38895899796113093392009-10-09T09:43:59.640-05:002009-10-09T09:43:59.640-05:00Lori, thanks for mentioning some great ones. Shou...Lori, thanks for mentioning some great ones. Should of! Her sister Would of and brother Could of need a comeuppance fer shur.<br /><br />Venus, I'm with you on the hoof in mouth over grammar. I shove it in there every time I try to ride the grammar high horse. Hard to ride when you're eating one of your mount's hooves.<br /><br />But I live to entertain!Kathleen Eaglehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13561028604927993773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27662400.post-71800378373466051472009-10-09T09:06:37.244-05:002009-10-09T09:06:37.244-05:00Great blog!
I confess that the nitpicking English...Great blog!<br /><br />I confess that the nitpicking English teacher is part of who I am. Grammatical errors can pull me out of a book and send me ranting to whoever will listen.<br /><br />"Between you and I" is one that makes me cringe, and I see it and hear it often.Jangahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15128188159653860806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27662400.post-45967067147563577162009-10-09T08:40:24.871-05:002009-10-09T08:40:24.871-05:00Oh, yeah. Despise it when I see "loose"...Oh, yeah. Despise it when I see "loose" for "lose."<br /><br />But I also still avoid "lie" and "lay" even though I think I have it right now.<br /><br />Hate incentivize. Can't we just use motivate instead?Christie Ridgwayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17036552271272402052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27662400.post-56717570132798752602009-10-09T08:33:19.109-05:002009-10-09T08:33:19.109-05:00Kathy - I think we should have a weekly grammar, s...Kathy - I think we should have a weekly grammar, spelling and usage lesson from you. Too much fun.<br /><br />I received an e-mail the other day from a fan that had me scratching my head until I realized she'd basically typed a 'text' e-mail message. Not being of the thumb/text set, it took me a while to decipher it. It also scared me a little to think that it was her 'go to' method of communication and it makes me worry for the plight of the written word.<br />My grammar trouble spots remain the lie, lay, laid. I finally taped a note to my pc monitor to keep me straight on effect vs affect because that trips me up every time.<br />And I'm a BIG abuser of "There ya go!" even though that same phrase irritates me :o)<br />Thanks for the fun and informative post.Cindy Gerardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13311224531297908704noreply@blogger.com